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Home > Archive > PostgreSQL Discussion > May 2005 > Postgres in government
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Postgres in government
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| Mark Steckel 2005-05-19, 9:23 am |
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Hello,
Sorry for the cross post.
I am working on a requirements and recommendation document for a division
of the State of Hawaii Attorney General's office. We are proposing that
Postgres be used for the application database. Not too surprisingly we are
being asked for additional information because Postgres is open source.
We all know that Postgres is good and given the requirements and scale of
this project (fairly small) it is a very good fit. I have looked at the
case studies listed on postgresql.org and searched the mailing list
archives. I have also scrounged the Internet looking for examples of
Postgres being used in government, preferably in 24x7 capacities. Overall,
not a lot of examples out there, which seems strange because I know it is
being used by various government agencies.
Its the communities of users and developers that make open source software
so powerful, I decided that the best course of action was to leverage the
community.
So, if you have used Postgres (or know that it has been used) for a
government project, especially in a 24x7 environment, I would greatly
appreciate hearing about it. Ideally, I need more than just the project
name. Specifically, A brief description of the project, number of
users/transactions as day/week/month, etc, whatever details you have and
can share.
Please CC me as I'm not subscribed to the list. And since I'm leaving on
vacation in 3 days, please CC my coworkers at postgres-info@eworldes.com
Thanks in advance
Mark
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| Scott Marlowe 2005-05-19, 11:23 am |
| On Wed, 2005-05-18 at 21:24, Mark Steckel wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Sorry for the cross post.
>
> I am working on a requirements and recommendation document for a division
> of the State of Hawaii Attorney General's office. We are proposing that
> Postgres be used for the application database. Not too surprisingly we are
> being asked for additional information because Postgres is open source.
>
> We all know that Postgres is good and given the requirements and scale of
> this project (fairly small) it is a very good fit. I have looked at the
> case studies listed on postgresql.org and searched the mailing list
> archives. I have also scrounged the Internet looking for examples of
> Postgres being used in government, preferably in 24x7 capacities. Overall,
> not a lot of examples out there, which seems strange because I know it is
> being used by various government agencies.
>
> Its the communities of users and developers that make open source software
> so powerful, I decided that the best course of action was to leverage the
> community.
>
> So, if you have used Postgres (or know that it has been used) for a
> government project, especially in a 24x7 environment, I would greatly
> appreciate hearing about it. Ideally, I need more than just the project
> name. Specifically, A brief description of the project, number of
> users/transactions as day/week/month, etc, whatever details you have and
> can share.
There are probably thousands of 24/7 operations running postgresql.
None of them have to tell anyone, so it's no surprise you haven't heard
about them.
One of the more interesting projects running on postgresql is the .org
domain. Do a search for postgresql and afilias and .org or whatnot.
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| |
| Berend Tober 2005-05-19, 11:23 am |
| Scott Marlowe wrote:
[color=darkred]
>On Wed, 2005-05-18 at 21:24, Mark Steckel wrote:
>
>
So is the implication that they think open source is a bad thing? I
would think they would question a recommendation for using proprietory
products!
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| Ron Mayer 2005-05-19, 11:23 am |
| Mark Steckel wrote:
> I have also scrounged the Internet looking for examples of
> Postgres being used in government, preferably in 24x7 capacities.
I find googling for vendors who are known to use PostgreSQL and
searching for people's resumes is a good way to find descriptions
of Government projects along with contacts for references.
Here's a couple that look interesting.
US Navy, Northrop Grumman
Use PostgreSQL in the Navy Enterprise Portal and the Fleet
Numerical Meteorology and Oceanography Center(FNMOC) Portal:
http://kennethbowen.com/kbresume.html
" Develop J2EE application to store user profiles for the Navy
Enterprise Portal and the Fleet Numerical Meteorology and Oceanography
Center(FNMOC) Portal using JBoss application server and
PostgreSQL database.
"
DOD, USGS, USDA, Army Corp of Engineers, Navy, through a company called Sanz:
http://postgis.refractions.net/pipe...rch/007399.html
Sanz manages
"tens of terrabyte datasets of raster and vector
data for the DOD, USGS, USDA, Army Corp of
Engineers, Navy, etc."
using postgresql and postgis
| |
| Philip Hallstrom 2005-05-19, 11:23 am |
| >>> ...We are proposing that Postgres be used for the application database.
> So is the implication that they think open source is a bad thing? I would
> think they would question a recommendation for using proprietory products!
It's all about covering their butts... If they buy SQLServer and it goes
bad, they can sue Microsoft. Or at least they like to think they can.
If PostgreSQL goes bad, who are they going to sue? No one... which means
the guy who approved it is the scape goat -- which is why he wants proof
that others have found it worthy...
Silly, but that's probably what's happening.
-philip
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| Scott Marlowe 2005-05-19, 1:23 pm |
| On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 11:35, Philip Hallstrom wrote:
>
> It's all about covering their butts... If they buy SQLServer and it goes
> bad, they can sue Microsoft. Or at least they like to think they can.
Ummm. No, they can't. But they can BLAME microsoft to their bosses.
Microsoft's EULA, like most for commercial software, makes it clear that
all you'll ever get out of them is your money back. And even that is a
stretch.
Read up on their "indemnity". It's basically a money back guarantee,
and nothing more.
> If PostgreSQL goes bad, who are they going to sue?
The same people they would sue if MSSQL went south...
> No one...
Correct.
> which means
> the guy who approved it is the scape goat
Sadly, lots of people in positions of power still want scape goats,
rather than proven results.
> -- which is why he wants proof
> that others have found it worthy...
When what he should want is proof that it will work for HIS situation,
since other's use may or may not reflect his.
> Silly, but that's probably what's happening.
Most surely. It's common when people with business degrees but poor
understanding of the scientific method get involved.
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| Richard_D_Levine@raytheon.com 2005-05-19, 1:23 pm |
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pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org wrote on 05/19/2005 11:35:07 AM:
database.[color=darkred]
> information because
would[color=darkred]
products![color=dark
red]
>
> It's all about covering their butts... If they buy SQLServer and it goes
> bad, they can sue Microsoft. Or at least they like to think they can.
>
> If PostgreSQL goes bad, who are they going to sue? No one... which means
> the guy who approved it is the scape goat -- which is why he wants proof
> that others have found it worthy...
>
> Silly, but that's probably what's happening.
Exactly that has happened to me. Indemnification is the term. I was also
told that before using any opensource project I had to locally
configuration control the product and perform a complete review of the
source. I don't have to do that with Oracle because they've got lawyers,
and we've got lawyers, and they know each other's phone numbers. Anybody
have a phone number for PostgreSQL's lawyer? Don't flame me, please, I'm
really kidding about the lawyer thing, but the rest is true.
Rick
>
> -philip
>
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| Stephen Frost 2005-05-19, 1:23 pm |
| * Mark Steckel (mjs@eworldes.com) wrote:
> So, if you have used Postgres (or know that it has been used) for a
> government project, especially in a 24x7 environment, I would greatly
> appreciate hearing about it. Ideally, I need more than just the project
> name. Specifically, A brief description of the project, number of
> users/transactions as day/week/month, etc, whatever details you have and
> can share.
>
> Please CC me as I'm not subscribed to the list. And since I'm leaving on
> vacation in 3 days, please CC my coworkers at postgres-info@eworldes.com
Sorry about the ugly links, but...
GSA Networx Acquisition:
http://www.gsa.gov/Portal/gsa/ep/ch...hannelId=-16201
GSA Networx Hosting Center:
http://www.gsa.gov/Portal/gsa/ep/co...asic.jsp&P=TOS3
GSA Networx Hosting Center User Instructions:
http://www.gsa.gov/gsa/cm_attachmen...RDZ-i34K-pR.pdf
Check out the bottom of page 2. :)
Enjoy... :)
Stephen
| |
| P.J. \Josh\ Rovero 2005-05-19, 8:23 pm |
| The NOAA National Data Buoy Center is a government customer
(there are many commercial customers) for our wXstation(R)
product, which uses PostgreSQL as its database.
The number of government customers may increase dramatically
in the near future.
--
P. J. "Josh" Rovero Sonalysts, Inc.
Email: rovero@sonalysts.com www.sonalysts.com 215 Parkway North
Work: (860)326-3671 or 442-4355 Waterford CT 06385
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| Mark Harrison 2005-05-19, 8:23 pm |
| > Sadly, lots of people in positions of power still want scape goats,
> rather than proven results.
No, it could be that the OP's organization is looking for some proof
of postgresql's results.
A lot of people are familiar with the criteria for evaluating
a company or commercial product. Open source products have a
different set of criteria that are sometimes a bit harder to
pin down.
An advantage of a commercial product is that you can ask the
vendor for references from people doing similar work to
what you are doing. As we can see here, that's a bit more
difficult for open source projects.
It's frustrating, but just one of the hurdles you have to face
when advocating open source software. My first experience with
this was in 1991, when I introduced Tcl and Perl into NEC. It
did not happen until Larry Wall's book came out and I could
answer the question "why are these guys doing this? how are
they going to make money to continue to do this?" with "hey
they're giving away the software and making a fortune on the
books!"
> Most surely. It's common when people with business degrees but poor
> understanding of the scientific method get involved.
As opposed to people with science degrees but poor understanding
of business methods? :-)
Cheers,
Mark
--
Mark Harrison
Pixar Animation Studios
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| Scott Marlowe 2005-05-20, 9:23 am |
| On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 15:10, Mark Harrison wrote:
>
> No, it could be that the OP's organization is looking for some proof
> of postgresql's results.
That's a bit out of context. The message I was responding to was the
one talking about having someone to sue, which is pure fiction, as all
commercial software licenses make it pretty clear that the most you're
gonna get is your money back.
Please leave a little more context next time, as it looked from your
response that my response was to the OP, which it most certainly was
not.
>
> As opposed to people with science degrees but poor understanding
> of business methods? :-)
I'd say either one is a recipe for disaster, eh? :)
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| Mark Harrison 2005-05-23, 1:23 pm |
| Scott Marlowe wrote:
> On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 15:10, Mark Harrison wrote:
>
>
>
> That's a bit out of context. The message I was responding to was the
> one talking about having someone to sue, which is pure fiction, as all
> commercial software licenses make it pretty clear that the most you're
> gonna get is your money back.
>
> Please leave a little more context next time, as it looked from your
> response that my response was to the OP, which it most certainly was
> not.
Sorry, did not mean to do that... Sincere apologies for the mistake!!
>
>
> I'd say either one is a recipe for disaster, eh? :)
:)
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