PostgreSQL Hacks - Re: Pgfoundry and gborg: shut one down

Author

Re: Pgfoundry and gborg: shut one down

Tom Lane

2006-02-18, 1:23 pm

Thomas Hallgren <thomas@tada.se> writes:
> Bruce Momjian wrote:
[color=darkred]
> I've repeatedly asked for help moving my PL/Java stuff over to pgfoundry and offered my help
> in the process,

Indeed, we haven't made any particular effort to encourage gborg
projects to move. I think it's a bit premature to hold a gun to
their heads.

regards, tom lane

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Joshua D. Drake

2006-02-18, 1:23 pm

> Indeed, we haven't made any particular effort to encourage gborg
> projects to move. I think it's a bit premature to hold a gun to
> their heads.
>
Well that is not exactly true. We have been encouraging gborg projects
to move for at least a year.

What we haven't done is provided an easy means to do so.

But frankly after seeing, working on and with pgFoundry I don't think
pushing them there is a good choice either.

Documentation is very sparse, bugs are rampant and I don't want to even
consider
the possible security issues involved with it.

That being said, as an inclusive solution there really isn't anything else
out there :(

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

> regards, tom lane
>
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Andrew Dunstan

2006-02-18, 1:23 pm

Joshua D. Drake wrote:

>
>
> Well that is not exactly true. We have been encouraging gborg projects
> to move for at least a year.
>
> What we haven't done is provided an easy means to do so.
>
> But frankly after seeing, working on and with pgFoundry I don't think
> pushing them there is a good choice either.
>
> Documentation is very sparse, bugs are rampant and I don't want to
> even consider
> the possible security issues involved with it.
>
> That being said, as an inclusive solution there really isn't anything
> else
> out there :(
>
>

I think that's overstating it a bit (even though I know you held back
;-) ). We have stomped on most of the significant bugs that have arisen
from our implementation, and gotten some fixes from upstream too. We do
have a couple of GForge devs who help us out. We have in fact been
pretty careful about security issues.

Frankly, what we need is someone with enough dedicated time and drive to
push the migration through. Ideally that would be someone who could work
fulltime for the several weeks I suspect a complete migration would
take. Unfortunately, I don't know of such a resource.

If we could get to be running pgFoundry on the latest GForge, with
PHP/CGI enabled project web pages, a database per project available, SVN
as well as CVS, and a known stable mailman release we'd be in excellent
shape.

I'd rather move forwards than back.

cheers

andrew

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Bruce Momjian

2006-02-18, 8:23 pm

Tom Lane wrote:
> Thomas Hallgren <thomas@tada.se> writes:
>
>
> Indeed, we haven't made any particular effort to encourage gborg
> projects to move. I think it's a bit premature to hold a gun to
> their heads.

If we don't push folks, nothing will happen, which is what has happened
for years now. Let's set a date and tell people to move, or else.
Keeping our stuff split like this is not helping us.

--
Bruce Momjian http://candle.pha.pa.us
SRA OSS, Inc. http://www.sraoss.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

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Bruce Momjian

2006-02-18, 8:23 pm

Andrew Dunstan wrote:
> If we could get to be running pgFoundry on the latest GForge, with
> PHP/CGI enabled project web pages, a database per project available, SVN
> as well as CVS, and a known stable mailman release we'd be in excellent
> shape.
>
> I'd rather move forwards than back.

I don't care what direction we go, just kill one. We are at the
"dancing bear" stage with this thing, like we were with the web site
redesign:

[ old posting ]
>
> Looking around now. Perhaps a dancing elephant. WARNING: This will
> make you ill:
>
> http://janetskiles.com/ART/greeting...ng-elephant.jpg

That URL is priceless, and perhaps instead of shutting down the old
server, we should just put this up on there to shame people into moving.

Anyway, it is time to do something, and doing "anything" is starting to
look good. I think I even have some stuff on gborg and would move it if
there was a push to do that, so I know from experience that a deadline
is what it is going to take.

--
Bruce Momjian http://candle.pha.pa.us
SRA OSS, Inc. http://www.sraoss.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

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Christopher Browne

2006-02-18, 8:23 pm

Centuries ago, Nostradamus foresaw when andrew@dunslane.net (Andrew Dunstan) would write:
> If we could get to be running pgFoundry on the latest GForge, with
> PHP/CGI enabled project web pages, a database per project available,
> SVN as well as CVS, and a known stable mailman release we'd be in
> excellent shape.

Slony-I would move there fairly quickly upon availability of SVN; a
lot of our folks would be pretty keen on storing things in SVN.
*That* is about the only thing holding off migration for at least one
project...
--
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Christopher Browne

2006-02-18, 8:23 pm

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, pgman@candle.pha.pa.us (Bruce Momjian) wrote:
> Tom Lane wrote:
>
> If we don't push folks, nothing will happen, which is what has happened
> for years now. Let's set a date and tell people to move, or else.
> Keeping our stuff split like this is not helping us.

Be sure there's a carrot as well as the stick...

pgFoundry does generally look more featureful, which is a good thing.
A choice of CVS and SVN would be a bigger carrot...
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Joshua D. Drake

2006-02-18, 8:23 pm

Christopher Browne wrote:
> Centuries ago, Nostradamus foresaw when andrew@dunslane.net (Andrew Dunstan) would write:
>
>
> Slony-I would move there fairly quickly upon availability of SVN; a
> lot of our folks would be pretty keen on storing things in SVN.
> *That* is about the only thing holding off migration for at least one
> project...
>
SVN is actually on pgFoundry and apache is ready to allow webdav
connections. What doesn't work is the integration with pgFoundry/Gforge.

Joshua D. Drake

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Bruce Momjian

2006-02-18, 8:23 pm

Christopher Browne wrote:
> Centuries ago, Nostradamus foresaw when andrew@dunslane.net (Andrew Dunstan) would write:
>
> Slony-I would move there fairly quickly upon availability of SVN; a
> lot of our folks would be pretty keen on storing things in SVN.
> *That* is about the only thing holding off migration for at least one
> project...

This is not "get everything everyone wants before shutting down a site"
time. We should move to one site, and if the new site is not to
someone's liking, there is always sourceforge and other hosting sites.

--
Bruce Momjian http://candle.pha.pa.us
SRA OSS, Inc. http://www.sraoss.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

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Joshua D. Drake

2006-02-18, 8:23 pm

> This is not "get everything everyone wants before shutting down a site"
> time. We should move to one site, and if the new site is not to
> someone's liking, there is always sourceforge and other hosting sites.
>
I do agree with Bruce here but... we need to make sure that
we give everyone their data. If Gborg does CVS like Gforge
we may have a problem in that there is only one cvs repository.

Joshua D. Drake

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Joshua D. Drake

2006-02-19, 3:23 am

>
> SVN is installed on the pgFoundry server, but I think getting
> pgFoundry to use it got stalled somewhere along the way ...
Yes.. I called no joy after finding a complete lack of documentation on
integrating it. See the archives :)

Joshua D. Drake

>
> ----
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> (http://www.hub.org)
> Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ:
> 7615664
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Christopher Browne

2006-02-19, 3:23 am

In an attempt to throw the authorities off his trail, jd@commandprompt.com ("Joshua D. Drake") transmitted:
> Yes.. I called no joy after finding a complete lack of documentation
> on integrating it. See the archives :)

Ah, fair enough. It probably makes sense to start arguing again about
what to do about pgFoundry on the Slony-I list...

I have some time again to get on with some Slony-I work after things
had gotten a bit nuts in other areas, between a new TLD grabbing all
my time, and then the personal matter of my father undergoing (happily
successful) cancer surgery. I think I had a client connect to the IRC
channel for about a week and a bit of not being around to watch it
:-(.

Anyway, it probably makes some sense to move Slony-I over some time
soon.
--
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Dave Page

2006-02-19, 7:23 am

-----Original Message-----
From: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org on behalf of Joshua D. Drake
Sent: Sun 2/19/2006 12:35 AM
To: Bruce Momjian
Cc: Christopher Browne; pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Pgfoundry and gborg: shut one down

[color=darkred]
> This is not "get everything everyone wants before shutting down a site"
> time. We should move to one site, and if the new site is not to
> someone's liking, there is always sourceforge and other hosting sites.
>

Moving CVS is not a problem - each project has their own repo on both systems. The problem is moving all the database stuff such as the bug trackers and todo lists, for which I'm told there are no working scripts.

The other one that caused me great pain when I moved psqlODBC over was the GBorg genpages. I ended up manually pulling the code out of them and into plain HTML files as there is no equivalent area on pgFoundry.

FWIW, in both the moves I have done (psqlODBC and Npgsql), only the CVS was actually moved.

Regards, Dave

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Thomas Hallgren

2006-02-19, 7:23 am

Dave Page wrote:
>
> Moving CVS is not a problem - each project has their own repo on both systems. The problem is moving all the database stuff such as the bug trackers and todo lists, for which I'm told there are no working scripts.
>
> The other one that caused me great pain when I moved psqlODBC over was the GBorg genpages. I ended up manually pulling the code out of them and into plain HTML files as there is no equivalent area on pgFoundry.
>
> FWIW, in both the moves I have done (psqlODBC and Npgsql), only the CVS was actually moved.
>
Perhaps that's the general solution. Forget about the database, genpages etc. and ask
respective project administrators to move them manually? The two really important things are
the CVS and the mailing-list.

On my part, It'd be sufficient if those two where moved. My html content stems from my CVS
and I plan to restructure it a bit anyway. My bug-tracking can be moved manually if need be.

I too would be happy if I could somehow migrate to SVN but that can be done later.

Regards,
Thomas Hallgren

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Luke Lonergan

2006-02-19, 8:37 pm

FYI - as a positive enhancement, Greenplum donated a beefy server to host
pgFoundry.

- Luke

On 2/18/06 10:34 AM, "Tom Lane" <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> wrote:

> Thomas Hallgren <thomas@tada.se> writes:
>
>
> Indeed, we haven't made any particular effort to encourage gborg
> projects to move. I think it's a bit premature to hold a gun to
> their heads.
>
> regards, tom lane
>
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>
>

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Jeroen T. Vermeulen

2006-02-20, 3:24 am

On Sun, February 19, 2006 05:10, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> I don't care what direction we go, just kill one.

Speaking for libpqxx, my only concern with that is the mailing list.
Would those have to move to different addresses--or conversely, would a
forced migration make it much easier to move *all* GBorg mailing lists to
pgFoundry and maintain their old addresses?

Jeroen

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Marc G. Fournier

2006-02-20, 3:24 am

On Mon, 20 Feb 2006, Jeroen T. Vermeulen wrote:

> On Sun, February 19, 2006 05:10, Bruce Momjian wrote:
>
>
> Speaking for libpqxx, my only concern with that is the mailing list.
> Would those have to move to different addresses--or conversely, would a
> forced migration make it much easier to move *all* GBorg mailing lists to
> pgFoundry and maintain their old addresses?

All addresses would have to be changed to the pgfoundry.org one ...

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Jeroen T. Vermeulen

2006-02-20, 3:24 am

On Mon, February 20, 2006 11:00, Marc G. Fournier wrote:

>
> All addresses would have to be changed to the pgfoundry.org one ...

Ouch! Moving my project off GBorg wasn't so hard, but forcing all mailing
list subscribers to move to a different address does hurt.

If the same goes for many other projects on there, wouldn't it be possible
to move all mail handling for gborg.postgresql.org over to pgFoundry at
once, but preserve the domain name and list names? It may help people
make the jump if mailing list migration could be decoupled from the other
changes.

Jeroen

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Jim C. Nasby

2006-02-25, 9:48 am

On Mon, Feb 20, 2006 at 02:49:30PM +0700, Jeroen T. Vermeulen wrote:
> On Mon, February 20, 2006 11:00, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
>
>
> Ouch! Moving my project off GBorg wasn't so hard, but forcing all mailing
> list subscribers to move to a different address does hurt.
>
> If the same goes for many other projects on there, wouldn't it be possible
> to move all mail handling for gborg.postgresql.org over to pgFoundry at
> once, but preserve the domain name and list names? It may help people
> make the jump if mailing list migration could be decoupled from the other
> changes.

Actually, it should be entirely possible to setup forwarding for
projects as they migrate, one-by-one. AFAIK mailman will handle
something like project-blah@gbork.org being forwarded to
project-blah@pgfoundry.org.
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Marc G. Fournier

2006-02-25, 9:48 am

On Wed, 22 Feb 2006, Jim C. Nasby wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 20, 2006 at 02:49:30PM +0700, Jeroen T. Vermeulen wrote:
>
> Actually, it should be entirely possible to setup forwarding for
> projects as they migrate, one-by-one. AFAIK mailman will handle
> something like project-blah@gbork.org being forwarded to
> project-blah@pgfoundry.org.

Woo hoo ... a mailman expert ... let us know how it is done so that we can
do it :)

----
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Marc G. Fournier

2006-02-25, 9:48 am

On Wed, 22 Feb 2006, Jim C. Nasby wrote:

> So, is there a formal project setup anywhere for the migration? ISTM
> that it would be best to create a project on either gborg or pgfoundry
> with the intention that it produce a set of code/scripts/procedures that
> allow for migrating projects from gborg to pgfoundry, since obviously
> moving lists over is a minor portion of the effort.

Actually, we've even got a prelim script setup for moving teh database
that I have to spend some time testing, after which we can start moving
....

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Jim C. Nasby

2006-02-25, 9:48 am

On Wed, Feb 22, 2006 at 04:26:27PM -0400, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Feb 2006, Jim C. Nasby wrote:
>
>
> Actually, we've even got a prelim script setup for moving teh database
> that I have to spend some time testing, after which we can start moving
> ...

Well, there's more than that. You'd need to move the actual mailman list
(though afaik that shouldn't be very hard; one issue is that you'd want
to shut mailman and probably the MTA down while a list is being moved).
What about files? Is there anything else?

I suggest setting up a project on pgfoundry and putting scripts there,
especially since some of this stuff can be figured out without access to
the actual environments (ie: a script to transfer a mailman list).

I know we've got a test copy of pgfoundry setup; do we have a test copy
of gborg somewhere as well?
--
Jim C. Nasby, Sr. Engineering Consultant jnasby@pervasive.com
Pervasive Software http://pervasive.com work: 512-231-6117
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