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Home > Archive > SQL Anywhere Feedback > September 2005 > Market Stragegy.
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| Jack T. 2005-08-30, 1:23 pm |
| ASE is an open source candidate IMO. ASA on the other hand has some pretty
good cards in its hand. They can realistically expect sales per seat
revenue. The only fly in the ointment is there is no way for developers to
roll out free demos of their apps. There MSDE steps in and provides that
path to MSSQL. The problem that ASA has, is a lot of the market they care
about is small numbers of users. As I've said to iAnywhere before, they
need to market a free, single user, non-replicatable database for demos and
single user programs to stay in the game long term. They don't have to go
the MSDE multi-user route.
There is no reason that ASA cannot grow into the MSSQL space, and the single
user market that ASA sees as being given away, they don't have anyway. Talk
about opportunity! ASA is multiplatform, something that MS cannot do. Web
servers are single user. ASA has 0% of the web market now. Why not get the
world thinking ASA, and then when they need multi-users, support,
replication, mobile, etc., then charge. Gutsy? Sure. It might not work,
but the current strategy will not work and has already cost them huge.
ASA's CPU licensing and cost per seat compared to MSSQL is a great startegy,
but only addresses their central part of the market and does little to build
mind share. iAnywhere would have to spend more money than they have to
create the mindshare and sales that they could generate by giving away ASA
to markets that they don't have anyway. ASA needs to create mindshare and
then pay DB2, Oracle, and MS SQL a visit like they are doing ASA. ASA may
not be able to sling as much data as some of the others, but there is a huge
segment of the market that doesn't need that where people are running a DBMS
that doesn't fit their business simply because ASA decided not to go after
it. My mind says to me about ASA's marketing, "What are they thinking?"
Regards,
Jack T.
| |
| Rob Waywell 2005-08-30, 1:23 pm |
| Have you contacted an account manager about our Embedded (OEM) Alliance
Program?
You can contact an account manager by calling 1-800-801-2069 or by e-mail at
contact_us@ianywhere
.com.
An overview of our Partner Progams is available at:
http://www.ianywhere.com/partner/alliance_overview.html
--
-----------------------------------------------
Robert Waywell
Sybase Adaptive Server Anywhere Developer - Version 8
Sybase Certified Professional
Sybase's iAnywhere Solutions
Please respond ONLY to newsgroup
EBF's and Patches: http://downloads.sybase.com
choose SQL Anywhere Studio >> change 'time frame' to all
To Submit Bug Reports:
http://case-express.sybase.com/cx/c...sc?CASETYPE=Bug
SQL Anywhere Studio Supported Platforms and Support Status
http://my.sybase.com/detail?id=1002288
Whitepapers, TechDocs, and bug fixes are all available through the iAnywhere
Developer Community at www.ianywhere.com/developer
"Jack T." <Jack. Toering_NO_SPAM_HERE
_@LeadingEdgeITA.com> wrote in message
news:43148b0d$1@foru
ms-1-dub...
> ASE is an open source candidate IMO. ASA on the other hand has some
> pretty good cards in its hand. They can realistically expect sales per
> seat revenue. The only fly in the ointment is there is no way for
> developers to roll out free demos of their apps. There MSDE steps in and
> provides that path to MSSQL. The problem that ASA has, is a lot of the
> market they care about is small numbers of users. As I've said to
> iAnywhere before, they need to market a free, single user,
> non-replicatable database for demos and single user programs to stay in
> the game long term. They don't have to go the MSDE multi-user route.
> There is no reason that ASA cannot grow into the MSSQL space, and the
> single user market that ASA sees as being given away, they don't have
> anyway. Talk about opportunity! ASA is multiplatform, something that MS
> cannot do. Web servers are single user. ASA has 0% of the web market
> now. Why not get the world thinking ASA, and then when they need
> multi-users, support, replication, mobile, etc., then charge. Gutsy?
> Sure. It might not work, but the current strategy will not work and has
> already cost them huge.
>
> ASA's CPU licensing and cost per seat compared to MSSQL is a great
> startegy, but only addresses their central part of the market and does
> little to build mind share. iAnywhere would have to spend more money than
> they have to create the mindshare and sales that they could generate by
> giving away ASA to markets that they don't have anyway. ASA needs to
> create mindshare and then pay DB2, Oracle, and MS SQL a visit like they
> are doing ASA. ASA may not be able to sling as much data as some of the
> others, but there is a huge segment of the market that doesn't need that
> where people are running a DBMS that doesn't fit their business simply
> because ASA decided not to go after it. My mind says to me about ASA's
> marketing, "What are they thinking?"
>
> Regards,
> Jack T.
>
>
| |
| Reed Shilts [Sybase] 2005-08-30, 8:24 pm |
| I'm probably speaking out of turn - I'm from the PocketBuilder
and PowerBuilder side of the street....
There *is* a royalty free single user version available (I ship it in
one of my products).
It has some limitations (cannot synchronize, some other stuff).
The iAnywhere guys have the details (even though the sales people
probably don't want to sell it).
HTH,
Reed Shilts
PocketBuilder Development Manager
<Standard-Disclaimers-Apply/>
On 30 Aug 2005 09:36:29 -0700, "Jack T."
<Jack. Toering_NO_SPAM_HERE
_@LeadingEdgeITA.com> wrote:
>ASE is an open source candidate IMO. ASA on the other hand has some pretty
>good cards in its hand. They can realistically expect sales per seat
>revenue. The only fly in the ointment is there is no way for developers to
>roll out free demos of their apps. There MSDE steps in and provides that
>path to MSSQL. The problem that ASA has, is a lot of the market they care
>about is small numbers of users. As I've said to iAnywhere before, they
>need to market a free, single user, non-replicatable database for demos and
>single user programs to stay in the game long term. They don't have to go
>the MSDE multi-user route.
<<<SNIP>>>
| |
| Jack T. 2005-08-30, 8:24 pm |
| > Have you contacted an account manager about our Embedded (OEM) Alliance
> Program?<
I've had many conversations and was given an account manager and a tech.
Nothing there made sense. The database that you distribute freely must be
locked against schema changes AND DATA CHANGES. This is a question that I
asked at least 10 times because I could not believe the answer. The answer
every time, sometimes after they had to talk to someone and call me back,
was no, you cannot update the data. That was unbelievable to me. That's
why I asked so many times. Sure, it's a $100 one-time investment, but the
only thing that it could really work for is for a product where the data
doesn't change. Moreover, even on single user apps, you may very well have
to make schema changes.
Another option is to spend $10,000 up front to install a copy of the
database that times out. As I recall that was annually. I don't see where
developers will flock to something like that either. I know of a large
vertical market package on ASA today that is looking desperately for a way
to leave ASA because of inflexibilities that he has run into over the years.
Today I use MSDE in that role. MS doesn't have to do anything illegal or
demonstrate unusual competence to break into a market. They simply have
show up, and the existing vendor base will force success upon them. MS
simply knows what time it is, and aren't trying to sell snowballs to
Eskimos. They have made themselves a familiar face though so people know
where to go for a snowcone. Then they have their hand out, and have done
quite using that model. They also correctly anticipated that their
competition would not catch on any time soon to their common sense tactics.
I was a CTO for 15 years before starting my own business. If marketing
people showed up in the board room without coherent strategy on how they
were going to approach the changing market, there would have been a change
of faces. Chairmen and CEOs make simple decisions guided by the well being
of the company. They want to hear a good plan and they want to see it
happen. There is more forgiveness for failing with a well thought out plan
than there is for failure to plan and act. The smartest moves I've seen
from iAnywhere that were very late in coming are free developer versions and
CPU licensing. My opinion after watching ASA's positioning, is that it is
in a defensive posture. Long term, that always works about as good as the
Maginot Line. They call the mobile market theirs while MS goes after their
business. MSSQL is a piece of junk, and I can prove it. Oracle and DB2 are
not a fit for most of the places they are installed, and ASA has some huge
advantages in that space, but I don't see ASA going after their markets. To
reposition the product, all they need to do is use the word enterprise in
every other sentence, and the ones in between use the word robust. This
isn't rocket science. If they don't have someone heading things up that
thinks like this, the answer is not to tell them to think like this. That
should have happened long before now. Someone with a university degree in
marketing does not equate to success. Somebody who thinks to this degree
will equate to success. The only way that is possible is if that person
makes it his business to understand the market, the product he is selling,
and the competition. Lee Iacocca did. If the CEO and Chairman don't make
that happen, the shareholders need to take care of some other things if they
care about ROI.
The only reason that I would dedicate this much of my time to this is
because it's a great DB, and I don't want to see ASA become something that
no longer makes sense to use.
Thanks,
Jack T.
PS: And if what the tech and account manager told me were not true about
the not being able to update the data, what do you think that cost when they
tell hundreds of people like me the same thing?
"Rob Waywell" <rwaywell@no_spam.ianywhere.com> wrote in message
news:4314a208$1@foru
ms-1-dub...
> Have you contacted an account manager about our Embedded (OEM) Alliance
> Program?
>
> You can contact an account manager by calling 1-800-801-2069 or by e-mail
> at contact_us@ianywhere
.com.
>
> An overview of our Partner Progams is available at:
>
> http://www.ianywhere.com/partner/alliance_overview.html
>
> --
> -----------------------------------------------
> Robert Waywell
> Sybase Adaptive Server Anywhere Developer - Version 8
> Sybase Certified Professional
>
> Sybase's iAnywhere Solutions
>
> Please respond ONLY to newsgroup
>
> EBF's and Patches: http://downloads.sybase.com
> choose SQL Anywhere Studio >> change 'time frame' to all
>
> To Submit Bug Reports:
> http://case-express.sybase.com/cx/c...sc?CASETYPE=Bug
>
> SQL Anywhere Studio Supported Platforms and Support Status
> http://my.sybase.com/detail?id=1002288
>
> Whitepapers, TechDocs, and bug fixes are all available through the
> iAnywhere
> Developer Community at www.ianywhere.com/developer
> "Jack T." <Jack. Toering_NO_SPAM_HERE
_@LeadingEdgeITA.com> wrote in message
> news:43148b0d$1@foru
ms-1-dub...
>
>
| |
| Reg Domaratzki \(iAnywhere Solutions\) 2005-08-31, 9:23 am |
| > I've had many conversations and was given an account manager and a tech.
> Nothing there made sense. The database that you distribute freely must be
> locked against schema changes AND DATA CHANGES.
The runtime version of the database engine most definitely allows for data
updates, but does not allow schema changes.
--
Reg Domaratzki, Sybase iAnywhere Solutions
Sybase Certified Professional - Sybase ASA Developer Version 8
Please reply only to the newsgroup
iAnywhere Developer Community : http://www.ianywhere.com/developer
iAnywhere Documentation : http://www.ianywhere.com/developer/product_manuals
ASA Patches and EBFs : http://downloads.sybase.com/swx/sdmain.stm
-> Choose SQL Anywhere Studio
-> Set filter to "Display ALL platforms IN ALL MONTHS"
"Jack T." <Jack. Toering_NO_SPAM_HERE
_@LeadingEdgeITA.com> wrote in message
news:4314ca34$1@foru
ms-2-dub...
>
> I've had many conversations and was given an account manager and a tech.
> Nothing there made sense. The database that you distribute freely must be
> locked against schema changes AND DATA CHANGES. This is a question that I
> asked at least 10 times because I could not believe the answer. The
answer
> every time, sometimes after they had to talk to someone and call me back,
> was no, you cannot update the data. That was unbelievable to me. That's
> why I asked so many times. Sure, it's a $100 one-time investment, but the
> only thing that it could really work for is for a product where the data
> doesn't change. Moreover, even on single user apps, you may very well
have
> to make schema changes.
>
> Another option is to spend $10,000 up front to install a copy of the
> database that times out. As I recall that was annually. I don't see
where
> developers will flock to something like that either. I know of a large
> vertical market package on ASA today that is looking desperately for a way
> to leave ASA because of inflexibilities that he has run into over the
years.
>
> Today I use MSDE in that role. MS doesn't have to do anything illegal or
> demonstrate unusual competence to break into a market. They simply have
> show up, and the existing vendor base will force success upon them. MS
> simply knows what time it is, and aren't trying to sell snowballs to
> Eskimos. They have made themselves a familiar face though so people know
> where to go for a snowcone. Then they have their hand out, and have done
> quite using that model. They also correctly anticipated that their
> competition would not catch on any time soon to their common sense
tactics.
>
> I was a CTO for 15 years before starting my own business. If marketing
> people showed up in the board room without coherent strategy on how they
> were going to approach the changing market, there would have been a change
> of faces. Chairmen and CEOs make simple decisions guided by the well
being
> of the company. They want to hear a good plan and they want to see it
> happen. There is more forgiveness for failing with a well thought out
plan
> than there is for failure to plan and act. The smartest moves I've seen
> from iAnywhere that were very late in coming are free developer versions
and
> CPU licensing. My opinion after watching ASA's positioning, is that it is
> in a defensive posture. Long term, that always works about as good as the
> Maginot Line. They call the mobile market theirs while MS goes after
their
> business. MSSQL is a piece of junk, and I can prove it. Oracle and DB2
are
> not a fit for most of the places they are installed, and ASA has some huge
> advantages in that space, but I don't see ASA going after their markets.
To
> reposition the product, all they need to do is use the word enterprise in
> every other sentence, and the ones in between use the word robust. This
> isn't rocket science. If they don't have someone heading things up that
> thinks like this, the answer is not to tell them to think like this. That
> should have happened long before now. Someone with a university degree in
> marketing does not equate to success. Somebody who thinks to this degree
> will equate to success. The only way that is possible is if that person
> makes it his business to understand the market, the product he is selling,
> and the competition. Lee Iacocca did. If the CEO and Chairman don't make
> that happen, the shareholders need to take care of some other things if
they
> care about ROI.
>
> The only reason that I would dedicate this much of my time to this is
> because it's a great DB, and I don't want to see ASA become something that
> no longer makes sense to use.
>
> Thanks,
> Jack T.
>
> PS: And if what the tech and account manager told me were not true about
> the not being able to update the data, what do you think that cost when
they
> tell hundreds of people like me the same thing?
>
> "Rob Waywell" <rwaywell@no_spam.ianywhere.com> wrote in message
> news:4314a208$1@foru
ms-1-dub...
e-mail[color=darkred]
http://case-express.sybase.com/cx/c...sc?CASETYPE=Bug[color=darkred]
message[color=darkre
d]
and[color=darkred]
MS[color=darkred]
has[color=darkred]
generate[color=darkr
ed]
to[color=darkred]
the[color=darkred]
that[color=darkred]
>
>
| |
| Michael Gould 2005-08-31, 11:23 am |
| Reg,
That is what he's saying. The OEM program IMO is a joke. Right as my OEM
agreement was up, they changed the program and wanted another 10K up front.
That wasn't my original agreement.
However the way the $100.00 version works, we really can't do full fledged
demos of our products without going and using something like MSSQL 2005
which allows us to freely distribute a full version of MSSQL 2005 Express
which is limited only by size and the number of CPU's.
I'd be happy if we could just distribute the non-network engine with a
database that is limited to 1 CPU and say 30-40 meg max. This way I could
still show my product and not have to convert back and forth.
Regards,
Michael Gould
"Reg Domaratzki (iAnywhere Solutions)" <FirstName.LastName@ianywhere.com>
wrote in message news:4315b652@forums
-1-dub...
>
> The runtime version of the database engine most definitely allows for data
> updates, but does not allow schema changes.
>
> --
> Reg Domaratzki, Sybase iAnywhere Solutions
> Sybase Certified Professional - Sybase ASA Developer Version 8
> Please reply only to the newsgroup
>
> iAnywhere Developer Community : http://www.ianywhere.com/developer
> iAnywhere Documentation :
> http://www.ianywhere.com/developer/product_manuals
> ASA Patches and EBFs : http://downloads.sybase.com/swx/sdmain.stm
> -> Choose SQL Anywhere Studio
> -> Set filter to "Display ALL platforms IN ALL MONTHS"
>
>
> "Jack T." <Jack. Toering_NO_SPAM_HERE
_@LeadingEdgeITA.com> wrote in message
> news:4314ca34$1@foru
ms-2-dub...
> answer
> have
> where
> years.
> tactics.
> being
> plan
> and
> their
> are
> To
> they
> they
> e-mail
> http://case-express.sybase.com/cx/c...sc?CASETYPE=Bug
> message
> and
> MS
> has
> generate
> to
> the
> that
>
>
| |
| Martin Baur 2005-08-31, 8:23 pm |
| In article <4315c216$1@forums-1-dub>, "Michael Gould" < mgouldATomniccdotcom
> says...
> I'd be happy if we could just distribute the non-network engine with a
> database that is limited to 1 CPU and say 30-40 meg max. This way I could
> still show my product and not have to convert back and forth.
I also support Jack's view. Some months ago I was developing a delphi custom app for a large company. The product could have a second future as an prodcut off the shelf. But that is future.
So I called up local Sybase resellers and they were offering those mentiond minimun quantities for a authenticated ASA engine. Starting with 100 copies and up.
I only needed one or two, one for my customer, one for me to adapt my application to the authenticated version. I can never afford some 10K up for a simple application that was developed for about
30K and which uses ASA ONLY because *I* liked it. Nobody asked about the db engine.
Forutnately, the before mentioned large company was accepting that I sold them an full ASA engine. Runtime was not sufficient, because I use triggers and stored proecures. I will not loose words on
that strange product Runtime Engine. Anyway, the company bought an ASA engine but in fact, if they were to complain to me selling them a db engine separately, I could hardly explain why I want that
engine and no ohter.
As I understand Jack, he wants Sybase to offer a much more flexible tariff structure. I also see a problem for ASA in the near future. Many dbs have gone Open Source, so the arguments to sell ASA
agaainst them are getting weaker ...
I like ASA but I still must afford it - even for small projects with only a few installations.
I hope I was able to make my point ... sometimes, I don't find the right words (minimal vocabulary ... :-/ )
Martin
| |
| Jack T. 2005-08-31, 8:23 pm |
| > The runtime version of the database engine most definitely allows for data
> updates, but does not allow schema changes. Right as my OEM agreement was
> up, they changed the program and wanted another 10K up front. That wasn't
> my original agreement.<
At one time it would have been easy for me to believe that.
Michael Gould said:
>they changed the program and wanted another 10K up front. That wasn't my
>original agreement.<
Funny you should mention that. There was no mention of that until I was
ready to roll-out the product, but they were sure nice while I was
developing. I wondered if they had anything else to do over there.
There are actually a whole lot of things over there that don't make sense.
Last week I got the part numbers that I needed. They said buy from us. I
said, how, I am a reseller and I buy through channels where I can make some
money on it. They said, "W'ell send you a quote." I said, "Fine. They
sent me a quote with list prices. I have no problem with them protecting
their channels, but after I told them what my options were? Why not be up
front? They justed wasted my time and theirs.
> I'd be happy if we could just distribute the non-network engine with a
> database that is limited to 1 CPU and say 30-40 meg max. This way I could
> still show my product and not have to convert back and forth.<
I agree that would help with the demos.
I have another suggestion. Lock it down to non-network engine, no
replication, one 2 gig. like MSDE or 5 gig like Mike uses with MSSQL 2005
Express. Put on your marketing hat for a minute. MySQL is too limited.
Postgres is struggling with the Windows environment, and that is where the
apps are developed. MSDE only works on Windows, and it's the dead ASE
architecture with lipstick. Microsoft's end game is Windows internet
servers and MSSQL. ASA has zero mindshare in this environment, so it's not
like they are giving something away. ASA would be attractive especially
since you have better tools than any of them. That's an ASA shaped hole in
the market if I've ever seen one. Now let's look at stand-alone
applications. The developer writes the app using ASA stand-alone. The
customer buys it. The guy now wants multi-user. $.
Let me now tell you my experience, and consider it typical. I like ASA and
have used it on custom packages and have been using it since Watcom 4.0.
Now I decide to market a product. iAnywhere is excited tells me all about
how they will help. They call and write every other day. I get ready for
rollout, and they talk $10,000 up front as Mike said, but they are very
vague about what my costs are going to be for the database and users even
after I pay the $10,000. I decide that I will simply buy the database from
distribution until I get some sales going and then try to project volumes
and find out exactly what they are talking about.
Now in the sales phase, I see that going making appointments and showing the
product isn't enough. I need to leave them with CD's to play with it on
their own. Have them use the app for two or three months to get them
hooked. I also need to be able to mail it to remote potential customers. I
talk to iAnywhere. Tech support assures me that the only thing available is
their embedded thing that costs about $100.00, but the schema and DATA are
locked. I can't believe, who on earth would make such a product. I call
the sales contact back again, and ask him to verify it. He says yes, that's
the way it is. I don't believe it, so I call the tech directly. He says,
I'm sure that's the way it is. Later I call in and get a girl. I decide to
have her do some leg work because a product like that makes not sense. She
calls me back the following day and tells me that you cannot modify the DATA
in the dbms. I'm thinking this is crazy.
I tell the guys on the programming forum that I'm looking for another
solution because.... They can't believe it. Some guy has a friend who
plays golf with the Sybase leads. He says that they are working on it for
him. Two other guys get involved with personnal contacts with Sybase
leadership. Long discussion ensue on the programming forums. Bottom line.
No solution. Now everybody knows, including those who weren't quite sure
what DBMS they want to use.
New threads break out. I start looking at Firebird. I spend a lot of time
to find out it's not playing with a full deck. I try Postgres, but no
windows at that time. MySQL doesn't have what I need. Ingres wasn't open
source yet. Next I try MSDE. I hate the thing. No distinct date and time
types, no trigger control, and the DDL RI does not work, but it's fast and
has a good query optimizer. I modify the app to do the RI and work around
the date and time issues. I learn how to do backup and restores from within
my program in MSDE. I write scripts to roll it out based on MS's excellent
documentation. I buy the development version of MSSQL to get the tools that
I need to develop with. I make my CD. It works really good. I figured
that for the real database I would simply use the other app, but I hate
maintaining and updating two of them. I noticed that MSDE works pretty good
using multiple users too. A lot of customers are small customers. Customer
balk at the price a little. I offer my product both ways. One is with the
free database and one is with SQL Anywhere. After a month of hard work
forced upon me by the iAnwhere, I now have options. Maybe MSDE is good
enough? If I sell it for the same money almost, I make more money. Some of
these customers have MSSQL already on their Windows 2003 Small Business
Servers. The MSSQL app is ahead of the ASA app. Microsoft didn't work to
get my business. It was simply a case where iAnywhere made it impossible
for me to do business with them, and they were the only option.
Next project. I get one that needs replication. First thought is ASA.
Somebody from CA hawks my name off from a discussion group and calls me on
the telephone telling me about how Ingres R3 can do that, and that he will
put together some simple screen shots on how easy column level replication
is in it. I know nothing about Ingres. He delivers. I ask him why he did
that. He said that by promoting Ingres mind share, people like me we've
learned don't mind paying for support when they can roll out apps and not be
beat up by licensing fees. When they roll it out their packages the same
thing happens at the customer level. We also sell companion etc..
Another ASA developer with a product built on it says I've had the same
experience with ASA. He said I'm watching Postgres and MaxDB. Another guy,
not me, rolls out an app last month on Ingres.(In fact he wanted my
replication information.) Now a Michael Gould chimes in an talks about how
he is in the same boat that I was, and is apparently is being forced to
entertain options like I had to.
In my opinion the fastest way for ASA to make it to open source is to keep
on doing what they are doing. If I were a stockholder, I'd want to hear
plan, and a good one.
Thanks,
Jack T.
| |
| Jack T. 2005-08-31, 8:23 pm |
| Now a Martin Baur with a similar story. This is not a newsgroup that many
people would frequent. The common thread is, ASA is a great product
suffering from marketing incompetence and neglect. I don't even want to
hear the Microsoft excuse anymore. Microsoft has proven time and again that
they lack vision and technical competence. They simply use a little common
sense and are there to catch the falling pieces from those who don't.
The point has been made, and supported. I only wish the best for ASA.
Thanks,
Jack T.
| |
| Richard Biffl 2005-09-01, 3:23 am |
| The way I see it, SQL Anywhere is a dreamboat for developers. It lets us
provide the functions and features our customers need, with minimal effort.
We could produce the same application using nothing but assembly language
and a LOT of time, or using another database product and some additional
development time, but SQL Anywhere is the fast track.
The tradeoff is the licensing cost. SQL Anywhere is about the most expensive
database system for embedding in an application aimed at small business.
My conclusion is that SQL Anywhere is more suited to custom software
development than embedding in shrinkwrapped applications. A customer who is
paying for development time will gladly pay a few hundred dollars more for
SQL Anywhere because it will save thousands of dollars in development time.
On the other hand, customers of shrinkwrapped software do not expect to bear
the burden of development costs. They care only about the licensing costs of
an application, and they compare those costs to similar applications from
other vendors. A product built with SQL Anywhere must have a very high value
to justify a premium of roughly $100 per user for the back-end database. If
the application program has a lot of sales, it may be possible to negotiate
a less expensive licensing fee, but a commercial product will never be as
cheap as open source or as a royalty-free product. As Steve Ballmer has
noted, "It's hard to compete with free."
I would love for SQL Anywhere to be free. Or, I'd love for an open source
product to be as reliable and easy to use, in both development and
administration, as SQL Anywhere. But we have to grapple with the world as we
find it. The marketing people at Sybase surely know that SQL Anywhere's
pricing puts it on the outskirts of the embedded application market. Perhaps
the next version will have a different pricing structure, or perhaps
Sybase's recent acquisition of the Advantage Database is meant to fill the
gap and serve that market. I just don't think you can assume that Sybase's
marketing is incompetent. SQL Anywhere my simply be aimed at small
businesses needing custom database software, and perhaps that market is
important enough to make up for missed sales to embedded applications. I
don't know, and you probably don't, but Sybase probably does.
Richard
| |
| Paul Horan[TeamSybase] 2005-09-03, 8:23 pm |
| "Richard Biffl" < sybaseforums@removve
thiisphrraseblacklet
tersoftware.com> wrote in message news:4316807e@forums
-1-dub...
> My conclusion is that SQL Anywhere is more suited to custom software
> development than embedding in shrinkwrapped applications.
I would disagree strongly. We're an ISV, with a custom software suite, and SQL Anywhere was the *perfect* database for
us to have chosen. True, we get a little resistance from the "larger" shops that have established IT departments, and
have standardized on MS or Oracle, but since we're truly an embedded database, and there's so little for the IT
department to have to worry about, that fact quickly becomes a moot point.
>A product built with SQL Anywhere must have a very high value
> to justify a premium of roughly $100 per user for the back-end database.
License cost is only one (small) factor in the overall TCO of an application. I'm in development, not sales, so I
actually have no idea whether the figure of $100/user is accurate or not. How do you justify those numbers?
--
Paul Horan[TeamSybase]
| |
| Richard Biffl 2005-09-05, 11:28 am |
| "Paul Horan[TeamSybase]" < paulhATvcisolutionsD
OTcom> wrote in message
news:431a2123$1@foru
ms-1-dub...
> License cost is only one (small) factor in the overall TCO of an
application. I'm in development, not sales, so I
> actually have no idea whether the figure of $100/user is accurate or not.
How do you justify those numbers?
My $100/seat estimate is based on SQL Anywhere's retail pricing. I inquired
about Sybase's partner program a year or two ago, and that's about what the
pricing looked like even *with* a $20,000 up front commitment. With a
greater commitment, better pricing might be available.
Don't get me wrong; I *love* SQL Anywhere. If an application has a high
enough value, or a high enough volume of sales to earn discounted pricing
from Sybase, the licensing cost of SQL Anywhere will disappear in the noise.
But with less expensive and lower-volume applications, the licensing cost is
significant. And for very small businesses without IT staffs, the initial
licensing cost IS the TCO, as far as they're concerned.
Richard
| |
| Michael Gould 2005-09-06, 7:23 am |
| Paul,
The price per seat could be about 100 per seat if purchased on the retail
end and less if a OEM, however since Sybase changed their OEM agreement so
that you have to pay for licenses up front every 2-3 years it gets rather
expensive for some of us.
Regards,
Michael Gould
"Paul Horan[TeamSybase]" < paulhATvcisolutionsD
OTcom> wrote in message
news:431a2123$1@foru
ms-1-dub...
> "Richard Biffl" < sybaseforums@removve
thiisphrraseblacklet
tersoftware.com>
> wrote in message news:4316807e@forums
-1-dub...
>
> I would disagree strongly. We're an ISV, with a custom software suite,
> and SQL Anywhere was the *perfect* database for us to have chosen. True,
> we get a little resistance from the "larger" shops that have established
> IT departments, and have standardized on MS or Oracle, but since we're
> truly an embedded database, and there's so little for the IT department to
> have to worry about, that fact quickly becomes a moot point.
>
>
> License cost is only one (small) factor in the overall TCO of an
> application. I'm in development, not sales, so I actually have no idea
> whether the figure of $100/user is accurate or not. How do you justify
> those numbers?
>
> --
> Paul Horan[TeamSybase]
>
>
| |
| Paul Horan[TeamSybase] 2005-09-06, 1:23 pm |
| We're definitely in the partner program. Again, though, I'm the technologist, not the CTO of our company, so I'm not
totally aware of what our "costs" are. But we purchased a boatload of licenses upfront, and then "dole them out" to
sites on an as-needed basis. With that arrangement, we can support the 350-400 seat sites as well as the 10-25 seat
sites, and bury the cost of the SQLA license into our overall software license fees.
-Paul-
"Richard Biffl" < sybaseforums@removve
thiisphrraseblacklet
tersoftware.com> wrote in message
news:431c6954$1@foru
ms-1-dub...
> "Paul Horan[TeamSybase]" < paulhATvcisolutionsD
OTcom> wrote in message
> news:431a2123$1@foru
ms-1-dub...
> application. I'm in development, not sales, so I
> How do you justify those numbers?
>
> My $100/seat estimate is based on SQL Anywhere's retail pricing. I inquired
> about Sybase's partner program a year or two ago, and that's about what the
> pricing looked like even *with* a $20,000 up front commitment. With a
> greater commitment, better pricing might be available.
>
> Don't get me wrong; I *love* SQL Anywhere. If an application has a high
> enough value, or a high enough volume of sales to earn discounted pricing
> from Sybase, the licensing cost of SQL Anywhere will disappear in the noise.
> But with less expensive and lower-volume applications, the licensing cost is
> significant. And for very small businesses without IT staffs, the initial
> licensing cost IS the TCO, as far as they're concerned.
>
> Richard
>
>
| |
| David Jonker 2005-09-07, 8:23 pm |
| There has definitely been some great discussion here. Your candor is
appreciated. First and foremost, one of our goals with SQL Anywhere
is to ensure developers have a positive experience with the product.
What I am hearing is that your experience with the technology has been
positive, but your experience with the product's license terms have
not always.
Let me clarify some misunderstanding about the ASA Runtime Engine.
While it does limit deployed applications from making changes to the
schema (i.e. adding columns, tables, etc), it is still possible to add,
update
and remove data from an ASA Runtime database using standard SQL
constructs (i.e. insert, update, delete). There is a one-time $99 charge
after which the ASA Runtime Engine is freely distributable.
While it may not be as pertinent to this thread, the UltraLite database
engine
is also freely distributable when used as a standalone database server that
is
not being synchronized or distributed as part of a commercially sold
application (I'm sure the license has some other restrictions as well).
With respect to licensing SQL Anywhere, iAnywhere offers several different
ways for software developers to purchase and distribute SQL Anywhere with
their applications, each with different licensing terms and payment
structures.
The OEM alliance program discussed in this newsgroup thread is one such
method and includes several different business terms for qualifying
companies.
Software vendors can also join the Channel Alliance program as an
integrator,
value-added reseller or distributor, with different licensing terms and
discounts.
Lastly, partners can purchase SQL Anywhere at a discount through the
software reseller channel.
It is clear that there has been some miscommunication in the past with
several
of you concerning your options for licensing SQL Anywhere. I apologize for
that. You are more than welcome to call me if you would like to discuss.
As you are likely aware, a new version of SQL Anywhere will be released next
year. We re-evaluate the product's licensing models with every major
release,
which is why this newsgroup thread is timely. Having license terms that work
for
you is important to us. Please contact me ( djonker@sybase.com or
519-883-6852 ) if you are willing to further discuss with me how to change
licensing terms for the better.
We definitely want to ensure that SQL Anywhere provides a positive developer
experience all the way around - both the technology and the business terms!
David Jonker
Product Manager
SQL Anywhere Engineering Team
"Michael Gould" < mgouldATomniccdotcom
> wrote in message
news:431d8273$1@foru
ms-2-dub...
> Paul,
>
> The price per seat could be about 100 per seat if purchased on the retail
> end and less if a OEM, however since Sybase changed their OEM agreement so
> that you have to pay for licenses up front every 2-3 years it gets rather
> expensive for some of us.
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael Gould
>
> "Paul Horan[TeamSybase]" < paulhATvcisolutionsD
OTcom> wrote in message
> news:431a2123$1@foru
ms-1-dub...
< sybaseforums@removve
thiisphrraseblacklet
tersoftware.com>[color=darkred]
True,[color=darkred]
to[color=darkred]
database.[color=darkred]
>
>
| |
| Chris Kleisath 2005-09-07, 8:23 pm |
| As David mentioned above, we are listening, and are always on the lookout
for ways we can improve our licensing models to help our customers and
developers. David Jonker is gathering all this feedback, and will propose
enhancements and changes to the SQL Anywhere licensing models.
Thank you for your input.
Chris
// Chris Kleisath
// Sr. Director of Engineering
// iAnywhere
|
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